Maybe It's Called Freespace Because There's Nothing Left In It: Sandefur and I usually end up having semantic arguments. If he and I just agreed on the same terms for everything, I think we'd never disagree.

But, if we never disagreed, then we'd probably never talk any more. So I stir up the pot.

As for his reply, well, to part A, the religion part, I agree with my original assessment.

Say what?

Freedom means that you may choose not to be exposed to something if you don't want to?? Since when? Freedom of the press means I somehow must not be exposed to books I don't want to read? Freedom of assembly means never having to be [exposed to] any crowd you don't agree with?

That's the silliest thing I ever heard.

Freedom of the press means quite the opposite. It means that people can create, market, distribute, and expose me to any book they want. Whether I read it or not is up to me, but it makes my jaw drop that any rational person would suggest I have a Constitutional Right not to be exposed to it.

Should the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade be shut down, lest we violate a passing Jehovah's Witness right not to be exposed to crowds who believe differently from them? Should protesters outside of party conventions be hauled away, lest a delegate be exposed to a crowd he does not believe in?

Here in LA county, we're having a round of legal suits with the ACLU over the county seal. To some people, "freedom of religion" means taking the cross off of that seal, lest people be "exposed" to religion while in a government building.

Do we subsequently take out all the literature in the county building, lest people be exposed to press in a government building? Do we stop the speeches given during the meeting, lest people be exposed to government-sanctioned speech during the course of their visit?

To me, this thin-skinned offense at any "exposure" to religion is a joke.

Would the ACLU, upon visiting, say, China, be offended at all the depictions of Buddha? Would statues of Indian gods be offensive in public places in India? Or would they be recognized as part of a culture, perhaps viewed as an integral part of getting the full experience of a visit to that country?

So then why, when dealing with this country, can't atheists accept religion culturally, if nothing else? That cross doesn't have to hold any more significance to you than the goddess Pomona, who figures much more prominently in the seal than the cross does.

The fact is, if you did the genealogy of the principles of religion and law, you'd find them all tied up in common philosophic roots. In fact, a good number of philosophers would have found the notion of philosophy without religion ludicrous. So yes, you're going to see the ten commandments in courtrooms, and you're going to see crosses on seals. You're also going to see Greek and Roman gods and a whole slew of religious icons that follow a similar pattern back through the ages as the philosophers and thinkers that set the course which led to modern philosophical discourse.

So when Sandefur states, "religious freedom by definition means freedom from religion," I don't see how that would be. It would seem to me that in order to insure people weren't exposed to other religions would require putting limits on the practice of the religion, and limits, by definition, mean diminished freedom.

To beat a dead horse, let us refer to the rights granted in the second amendment as "freedom of bearing arms." I would agree that this implies I am free to choose whether I wish to own a weapon or not. But can you really make the argument that "freedom of bearing arms" means I have the right to never be exposed to a gun? That it somehow implies freedom from guns? That I can demand a law enforcement officer, or a hunter, or Michael Moore, any guy with any gun please put it away until I leave, lest being "exposed" to the arm violate my rights?

Of course not! The rights in question at this point are his, and he's got the right to bear arms. If he turns it on me or fires it at me, that's a whole different ballgame--at that point, he has abused his freedom, and he's trampled on my rights, so that's another issue altogether.

But does the mere existence of the cross violate anybody's rights? Have you been forced into Christianity by seeing the cross on the seal? Is a person forced into Christianity by hearing a prayer at a graduation ceremony?

Now keep in mind that, being Mormon, I don't believe in the cross either. Although Mormons are Christians in every sense of the word, we avoid the cross as a symbol, because we feel it focuses too much on the death of Christ, rather than on his life and resurrection.

But I don't blink at it when I see it in public, because I understand that it's the culture.

The peace sign is also a religious symbol, a satanic one--it represents an upside down and broken cross. However, culturally it's lost any of that meaning. It's no longer associated with anything having to do with religion.

Can't folks at least accept religion on this level? Allow it to show up, at times, in our public life, the way every other aspect of our culture does?

Or does freedom of the press mean there's some way I can get those trashy romance books at WalMart off the shelves and out of my sight?